#1078 Re: [osFree] Methodology
Expand Messages
Gregory L. Marx
Aug 3, 2004
Hide message history
On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:33:39 +0100, Lynn wrote:
<snip>
>So download plios2tb.zip and enjoy...at least for 60 days, when
>I guess you can unzip it again. You'll throw rocks at C and
>C++.
Download it from where ?
I haven't been following all the postings to this thread but I am interested in what Lynn recommends for programming.
Most developers I run into are win32 weenies that use VB and have such a lack of vision it's pathetic.
Even though most of what Lynn writes goes over my pointy little head he ALWAYS makes me smile, and think.
Something that's sadly in short supply during these dark days ...
Gregory L. Marx
Part 36 - Jul 28 2004
Re: Methodology
#1079 Re: Methodology
Expand Messages
kidmarc_arcor
Aug 3, 2004
This is to address both Gregory and Carl.
> Download it from where ?
It was covered by Stephan van Loendersloot's post:
------------------------------------------
Have a look at the files in the URL below:
ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/ps/products/pli/demos/
-------- <README.1ST> --------
DEMO/EVALUATION COPIES:
OS/2: Download either PLIOS2TB.ZIP or
PLIOSATB.ZIP and PLIOSBTB.ZIP
Windows: Download PLIWINTB.ZIP
-------- </README.1ST> --------
------------------------------------------
> I have emailed IBM to ask for a price a few days ago & no response
> yet... The readme mentioned that some of the libraries are missing
> in the demo version, as well as the time limit. I don't know which
> ones, so not sure how much this limits the demo version...
>
> I haven't read the license yet, but I assume that I won't be able
> to distribute any programs I write with the demo version. Maybe a
> copy will come up on Ebay one day.
The price for Visual Age PL/I for OS/2 is upwards of 2,000 USD. Don't
plan / hold your breath on a possible copy from eBay. Items appearing
there with respect to PL/I are the programming books. You can
purchase VA PL/I online still, and it is possible to get it for around
400 USD if you buy the Academic Version. This requires you to be
enrolled at a school or employed by one.
However, 2--3 years ago IBM removed from sale the media only (no
manuals) of VA PL/I which sold for 15--40 USD. The removal coincided
with their removal of other OS/2 products and services.
A possibility... request that "media only" be sold again as part of a
group package vis a vis the Developer's Package Serenity Systems had
contemplated at one time.
> I haven't been following all the postings to this thread but I am
> interested in what Lynn recommends for programming.
Lynn has in the past referred to REXX as the poor man's PL/I. <G>
> Even though most of what Lynn writes goes over my pointy little head
> he ALWAYS makes me smile, and think.
A bit humble... a little over the head, but not most.
Peace
marcus
-- How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink?
Expand Messages
kidmarc_arcor
Aug 3, 2004
This is to address both Gregory and Carl.
> Download it from where ?
It was covered by Stephan van Loendersloot's post:
------------------------------------------
Have a look at the files in the URL below:
ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/ps/products/pli/demos/
-------- <README.1ST> --------
DEMO/EVALUATION COPIES:
OS/2: Download either PLIOS2TB.ZIP or
PLIOSATB.ZIP and PLIOSBTB.ZIP
Windows: Download PLIWINTB.ZIP
-------- </README.1ST> --------
------------------------------------------
> I have emailed IBM to ask for a price a few days ago & no response
> yet... The readme mentioned that some of the libraries are missing
> in the demo version, as well as the time limit. I don't know which
> ones, so not sure how much this limits the demo version...
>
> I haven't read the license yet, but I assume that I won't be able
> to distribute any programs I write with the demo version. Maybe a
> copy will come up on Ebay one day.
The price for Visual Age PL/I for OS/2 is upwards of 2,000 USD. Don't
plan / hold your breath on a possible copy from eBay. Items appearing
there with respect to PL/I are the programming books. You can
purchase VA PL/I online still, and it is possible to get it for around
400 USD if you buy the Academic Version. This requires you to be
enrolled at a school or employed by one.
However, 2--3 years ago IBM removed from sale the media only (no
manuals) of VA PL/I which sold for 15--40 USD. The removal coincided
with their removal of other OS/2 products and services.
A possibility... request that "media only" be sold again as part of a
group package vis a vis the Developer's Package Serenity Systems had
contemplated at one time.
> I haven't been following all the postings to this thread but I am
> interested in what Lynn recommends for programming.
Lynn has in the past referred to REXX as the poor man's PL/I. <G>
> Even though most of what Lynn writes goes over my pointy little head
> he ALWAYS makes me smile, and think.
A bit humble... a little over the head, but not most.
Peace
marcus
-- How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink?
Re: [osFree] Methodology
#1080 Re: [osFree] Methodology
Expand Messages
Frank Griffin
Aug 3, 2004
Lynn H. Maxson wrote:
>Now Frank Griffin doesn't seem to appreciate what it means to
>input multiple program source in a single unit of work. He
>doesn't seem to appreciate what making a change to one or
>more specifications that cross program boundaries means in
>terms of synchronizing systemwide changes in a single unit of
>work and what that means in terms of productivity. It's not
>offered by any existing product. Yet it's inherently permitted
>by all of them.
>
>
That's not quite true. I *appreciate* it, but I know of other tools
that effectively accomplish it, e.g. make. I assume that the phrase
"changing specifications" eventually boils down to changing code in the
source base. If that's true, then make will automatically rebuild
everything that needs to be rebuilt as a result of that change.
Personally, I don't really care how many individual source files it has
to compile because C (if it's using C, which it doesn't have to) allows
only one main() per source file; as long as I don't have to do it, make
can work its little heart out.
I'm really on your side as regards this tool. But nobody is going to
understand what it does that other tools don't from the descriptions
you're giving. Nobody is going to go learn Prolog or Logic Programming
just to evaluate the design of this tool, and a lot of what you post
assumes that they will. Bringing LPEX into it was a nice concrete step
in the right direction, but it doesn't really advance your argument
since LPEX is distributed with and successfully used by
Visual-Age-for-everything-on-the-face-of-the-earth, including C/C++ and
Java.
You need to pick a nice simple application, and show the differences of
how necessary development tasks are handled differently by your tool and
the existing tools. I have a feeling that a large part of what your
tool wants to do is already covered by other tools you may or may not be
aware of, and it is quite possible that an integration of these other
tools would form a base upon which your tool could be built in our
lifetimes.
Expand Messages
Frank Griffin
Aug 3, 2004
Lynn H. Maxson wrote:
>Now Frank Griffin doesn't seem to appreciate what it means to
>input multiple program source in a single unit of work. He
>doesn't seem to appreciate what making a change to one or
>more specifications that cross program boundaries means in
>terms of synchronizing systemwide changes in a single unit of
>work and what that means in terms of productivity. It's not
>offered by any existing product. Yet it's inherently permitted
>by all of them.
>
>
That's not quite true. I *appreciate* it, but I know of other tools
that effectively accomplish it, e.g. make. I assume that the phrase
"changing specifications" eventually boils down to changing code in the
source base. If that's true, then make will automatically rebuild
everything that needs to be rebuilt as a result of that change.
Personally, I don't really care how many individual source files it has
to compile because C (if it's using C, which it doesn't have to) allows
only one main() per source file; as long as I don't have to do it, make
can work its little heart out.
I'm really on your side as regards this tool. But nobody is going to
understand what it does that other tools don't from the descriptions
you're giving. Nobody is going to go learn Prolog or Logic Programming
just to evaluate the design of this tool, and a lot of what you post
assumes that they will. Bringing LPEX into it was a nice concrete step
in the right direction, but it doesn't really advance your argument
since LPEX is distributed with and successfully used by
Visual-Age-for-everything-on-the-face-of-the-earth, including C/C++ and
Java.
You need to pick a nice simple application, and show the differences of
how necessary development tasks are handled differently by your tool and
the existing tools. I have a feeling that a large part of what your
tool wants to do is already covered by other tools you may or may not be
aware of, and it is quite possible that an integration of these other
tools would form a base upon which your tool could be built in our
lifetimes.
The momemdum lost?
#1081 The momemdum lost?
Expand Messages
Tom Lee Mullins
Aug 11, 2004
It seems the momemdum/activity built up then disappeared.
Is this project going somewhere or is it hopeless?
Is this just a lull in activity with plans being made?
Inquiring minds want to know.
BigWarpGuy
Expand Messages
Tom Lee Mullins
Aug 11, 2004
It seems the momemdum/activity built up then disappeared.
Is this project going somewhere or is it hopeless?
Is this just a lull in activity with plans being made?
Inquiring minds want to know.
BigWarpGuy
Re: [osFree] The momemdum lost?
#1082 Re: [osFree] The momemdum lost?
Expand Messages
jbaker314@earthlink.net
Aug 11, 2004
No, its not lost. My PC is under the weather. I should have it back up by the first of the week.
John P Baker
Software Engineer
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Lee Mullins
Sent: Aug 11, 2004 4:22 PM
To: osFree@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [osFree] The momemdum lost?
It seems the momemdum/activity built up then disappeared.
Is this project going somewhere or is it hopeless?
Is this just a lull in activity with plans being made?
Inquiring minds want to know.
BigWarpGuy
Expand Messages
jbaker314@earthlink.net
Aug 11, 2004
No, its not lost. My PC is under the weather. I should have it back up by the first of the week.
John P Baker
Software Engineer
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Lee Mullins
Sent: Aug 11, 2004 4:22 PM
To: osFree@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [osFree] The momemdum lost?
It seems the momemdum/activity built up then disappeared.
Is this project going somewhere or is it hopeless?
Is this just a lull in activity with plans being made?
Inquiring minds want to know.
BigWarpGuy
Re: [osFree] The momemdum lost?
#1083 Re: [osFree] The momemdum lost?
Expand Messages
Lynn H. Maxson
Aug 11, 2004
I assume that everyone downloaded the PL/I package from
IBM for the 60-day trial period. I did. It's a most complete
package. Enough that you have every opportunity to
understand the mistake of American universities over the last
30 years in promoting C.
If we in fact have a website onto which we can submit
material, we can begin a design document to end all such
documents. We have no baggage, no investment in tens of
millions of source statements, only the ability to begin where
all others only wish they could start.
Beyond that it's "momentum". You will find that I'm a stickler
for detail coupled with accuracy. I think we have an
opportunity to do the great OS adventure without any
compromise. We can build a better OS/2 without losing our
investment in the current one. We can do it in a way that will
frankly embarrass our competitors.
Once you understand the gap that exists between PL/I and C,
maybe you will come to believe in pursuing a higher standard.
Expand Messages
Lynn H. Maxson
Aug 11, 2004
I assume that everyone downloaded the PL/I package from
IBM for the 60-day trial period. I did. It's a most complete
package. Enough that you have every opportunity to
understand the mistake of American universities over the last
30 years in promoting C.
If we in fact have a website onto which we can submit
material, we can begin a design document to end all such
documents. We have no baggage, no investment in tens of
millions of source statements, only the ability to begin where
all others only wish they could start.
Beyond that it's "momentum". You will find that I'm a stickler
for detail coupled with accuracy. I think we have an
opportunity to do the great OS adventure without any
compromise. We can build a better OS/2 without losing our
investment in the current one. We can do it in a way that will
frankly embarrass our competitors.
Once you understand the gap that exists between PL/I and C,
maybe you will come to believe in pursuing a higher standard.
Re: [osFree] The momemdum lost?
#1084 Re: [osFree] The momemdum lost?
Expand Messages
Tom Lee Mullins
Aug 12, 2004
> I assume that everyone downloaded the PL/I package from
> IBM for the 60-day trial period. I did. It's a most complete
> package. Enough that you have every opportunity to
> understand the mistake of American universities over the last
> 30 years in promoting C.
>
> If we in fact have a website onto which we can submit
> material, we can begin a design document to end all such
> documents. We have no baggage, no investment in tens of
> millions of source statements, only the ability to begin where
> all others only wish they could start.
>
> Beyond that it's "momentum". You will find that I'm a stickler
> for detail coupled with accuracy. I think we have an
> opportunity to do the great OS adventure without any
> compromise. We can build a better OS/2 without losing our
> investment in the current one. We can do it in a way that will
> frankly embarrass our competitors.
>
> Once you understand the gap that exists between PL/I and C,
> maybe you will come to believe in pursuing a higher standard.
>
Thanks for the reply.
Since I use OS/2 and eComStation, I am for a higher standard.
BigWarpGuy
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * eComStation * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * the os for the internet generation * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * http://www.ecomstation.com * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * http://www.os2world.com * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * best site for OS/2 Warp Users * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Expand Messages
Tom Lee Mullins
Aug 12, 2004
> I assume that everyone downloaded the PL/I package from
> IBM for the 60-day trial period. I did. It's a most complete
> package. Enough that you have every opportunity to
> understand the mistake of American universities over the last
> 30 years in promoting C.
>
> If we in fact have a website onto which we can submit
> material, we can begin a design document to end all such
> documents. We have no baggage, no investment in tens of
> millions of source statements, only the ability to begin where
> all others only wish they could start.
>
> Beyond that it's "momentum". You will find that I'm a stickler
> for detail coupled with accuracy. I think we have an
> opportunity to do the great OS adventure without any
> compromise. We can build a better OS/2 without losing our
> investment in the current one. We can do it in a way that will
> frankly embarrass our competitors.
>
> Once you understand the gap that exists between PL/I and C,
> maybe you will come to believe in pursuing a higher standard.
>
Thanks for the reply.
Since I use OS/2 and eComStation, I am for a higher standard.
BigWarpGuy
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * eComStation * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * the os for the internet generation * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * http://www.ecomstation.com * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * http://www.os2world.com * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * best site for OS/2 Warp Users * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [osFree] The momemdum lost?
#1085 Re: [osFree] The momemdum lost?
Expand Messages
Mark D. Overholser
Aug 12, 2004
Lynn H. Maxson wrote:
> I assume that everyone downloaded the PL/I package from
> IBM for the 60-day trial period. I did. It's a most complete
> package. Enough that you have every opportunity to
> understand the mistake of American universities over the last
> 30 years in promoting C.
>
I can't find your post to the Link for this download... I would be
interested in PL/I.
Expand Messages
Mark D. Overholser
Aug 12, 2004
Lynn H. Maxson wrote:
> I assume that everyone downloaded the PL/I package from
> IBM for the 60-day trial period. I did. It's a most complete
> package. Enough that you have every opportunity to
> understand the mistake of American universities over the last
> 30 years in promoting C.
>
I can't find your post to the Link for this download... I would be
interested in PL/I.
Re: PL/I Download (was The momemdum lost?)
#1086 Re: PL/I Download (was The momemdum lost?)
Expand Messages
kidmarc_arcor
Aug 12, 2004
--- In osFree@yahoogroups.com, "Mark D. Overholser" <os2@m...> wrote:
> I can't find your post to the Link for this download... I would be
> interested in PL/I.
It was covered by Stephan van Loendersloot's post:
------------------------------------------
Have a look at the files in the URL below:
ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/ps/products/pli/demos/
-------- <README.1ST> --------
DEMO/EVALUATION COPIES:
OS/2: Download either PLIOS2TB.ZIP or
PLIOSATB.ZIP and PLIOSBTB.ZIP
Windows: Download PLIWINTB.ZIP
-------- </README.1ST> --------
------------------------------------------
Peace
marcus
-- For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
Expand Messages
kidmarc_arcor
Aug 12, 2004
--- In osFree@yahoogroups.com, "Mark D. Overholser" <os2@m...> wrote:
> I can't find your post to the Link for this download... I would be
> interested in PL/I.
It was covered by Stephan van Loendersloot's post:
------------------------------------------
Have a look at the files in the URL below:
ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/ps/products/pli/demos/
-------- <README.1ST> --------
DEMO/EVALUATION COPIES:
OS/2: Download either PLIOS2TB.ZIP or
PLIOSATB.ZIP and PLIOSBTB.ZIP
Windows: Download PLIWINTB.ZIP
-------- </README.1ST> --------
------------------------------------------
Peace
marcus
-- For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
Re: [osFree] Re: PL/I Download (was The momemdum lost?)
#1087 Re: [osFree] Re: PL/I Download (was The momemdum lost?)
Expand Messages
Mark D. Overholser
Aug 12, 2004
kidmarc_arcor wrote:
> --- In osFree@yahoogroups.com, "Mark D. Overholser" <os2@m...> wrote:
>
>
>>I can't find your post to the Link for this download... I would be
>>interested in PL/I.
>
>
> It was covered by Stephan van Loendersloot's post:
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Have a look at the files in the URL below:
>
> ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/ps/products/pli/demos/
>
> -------- <README.1ST> --------
>
> DEMO/EVALUATION COPIES:
>
> OS/2: Download either PLIOS2TB.ZIP or
> PLIOSATB.ZIP and PLIOSBTB.ZIP
>
> Windows: Download PLIWINTB.ZIP
>
> -------- </README.1ST> --------
> ------------------------------------------
>
> Peace
> marcus
>
> -- For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
>
Thanks for the Link....
MarkO
Expand Messages
Mark D. Overholser
Aug 12, 2004
kidmarc_arcor wrote:
> --- In osFree@yahoogroups.com, "Mark D. Overholser" <os2@m...> wrote:
>
>
>>I can't find your post to the Link for this download... I would be
>>interested in PL/I.
>
>
> It was covered by Stephan van Loendersloot's post:
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Have a look at the files in the URL below:
>
> ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/ps/products/pli/demos/
>
> -------- <README.1ST> --------
>
> DEMO/EVALUATION COPIES:
>
> OS/2: Download either PLIOS2TB.ZIP or
> PLIOSATB.ZIP and PLIOSBTB.ZIP
>
> Windows: Download PLIWINTB.ZIP
>
> -------- </README.1ST> --------
> ------------------------------------------
>
> Peace
> marcus
>
> -- For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
>
Thanks for the Link....
MarkO